Origins (yes religion but is religion enough to explain it?)
Do you think british colonialism played a role in it?
Cast and Christianism and Islam (if cast don’t exist anymore (it’s not really true) how to explain even in Islam and Christianism in Indian (religions that condemn cast) people from higher caste are the priest and imams and have others higher roles)
A lot of Indians deny the existence of caste but studies and events show it’s not the case.
Recents events (the Cisco case) and forum on reddit and different articles shows cast is present also in Indian diaspora and i was surprised you didn’t talk about it in your article.
Cast and Bollywood.
They just don’t talk about it and it makes sense they are all from the ”good” caste.
Except some modern tv shows like Ajeeb Daastaans, Made in Heaven the episode with Radhika Apte and the movie Article 15 with Ayushmann Khurrana.
How to take some posts, opinions, about LGBTQ+ rights in Indian and Black Lives Matter (many Bollywood celebrities posted about) while many Indians (the Dalits) are still treated as less than human?
This is not a comment to accuse or stir something.
I’m obsessed about India, Indian culture and watch indian movies, documentaries, listen to indian music, eat indian food, listen to some podcasts ect… and can’t find someone who is ready to talk about cast openly. Not for me or us to judge but to understand.
Thank you for writing this, I'm so glad some Note I wrote made it to you. Love disagreeable women and love that you write about class. I see so much of myself in your piece here, from childhood to adulthood to supporting Bernie Sanders. Among my peers to which I ostensibly belong to now, based on income, education, interests etc I am alone. No one else had to be head of household in their 20s to support their family of origin. It was such a rude awakening when I realized that my friends who always criticized power from leftist identity politics were all trust fund kids.
I'm so glad to find another woman who cares about such topics. I, too, felt an acute sense of betrayal. I'm reading a book, We Have Never Been Woke, atm, and it's an examination of the elite through the twentieth century drawing parallels between elite altruistic movements..which end up being in the service of the elites themselves. I came across your work through another WoP alum, I believe it was Ved who randomly linked me to you as I was talking to him about something else entirely. Would love to chat someday in a gym or otherwise :)
I often wonder to what extent our 'learned' social positions remain part of us, my mother was black and my father was white, he died when we were all very young, and we grew up on state benefits, if it were not for those benefits we would have been out on the street.
Despite climbing up to working class, working for myself, and earning a decent amount of money for several years, there is still something in me that gets activated, like a rebellious child that thinks he is being looked down upon from a facial expression or the tone of someone's voice.
I do wonder how much we can change, and how much we must just accept.
I appreciate your sharing this. I feel much the same in that my inner child that rich kids bullied is activated randomly among friends or at work; the experience of scarcity never leaves you, I think. I, too, have been doing fine for about eight years after struggling in my 20s, but my relationship with money remains mediated by my class origin. I think, much like people say, the experience of race informs your entire life; the experience of class has colored my relationships with people who were born into it (which is everyone I know). So, I'm not sure that we will ever feel completely at home among this class of people.
Makes me think of ‘Karna’ being seen and judged as the son of a charioteer, or that boy that chopped his thumb off in the Mahabharata to ensure Arjuna’s name as the greatest archer.
Did not expect an on point MbH reference from a non Indian-are you into mythology? The MbH is honestly an obsession of mine since childhood and I was considering writing something about it just this morning…
I have read the MbH (abriged version) several times, could be bordering on obsession, I find answers to questions - I wondered what is the purpose of a king when King Charles was about to be coronated.
‘The purpose of king is to provide freedom from fear’, was the specific answer in the MbH.
I can remember something about Yudhishthira stating that class can only really be determined by observing behaviour, as the classes are now mixed - I think it was when Bhima was caught be a snake or a Yaksha, and Yudhishthira had to answer questions to free him.
Have you read ‘The difficulty of being Good’ - Gurcharan Das? It’s based on the timeless teachings of the MbH.
I don't know how I found this, but I'm so glad I read it. It brings many aspects of my own experiences to light, as another Asian-American from a lower class background who ended up in the educated liberal professional world but has never felt like I fit in here, for many of the reasons you point out.
Thank you for writing and sharing this deeply personal and very vulnerable post. It's given me a lot to contemplate.
Thanks so much for reading, means a lot, and I appreciate your sharing your experience. It actually helps to know others from minority groups feel the same. I often feel like I'm pretending to be someone I'm not. Would love to read your story.
I found you via the Unbekoming SS and thankfully so. Brilliant article and expert diagnosing of your situation and the realities of all of it.
My better half and myself have both been sideswiped in our careers by sociopaths, men and women both. Sociopathy seems to be more common in women than men, but I've seen it play out in both genders.
We both work in tech and have experienced the ups/downs of going along to get along. I'm an introvert and am happy to be alone in order to keep my values intact. My spouse is an extrovert and is more willing to go along with things, but not when it crosses her baseline values. After a few bouts with these type of people, I can now see it coming miles away. I avoid them at all costs.
I worked for a woman, who made me her best friend, but after a year, she was determined I was after her job (which I wasn't and never would be - not my type of role), and then proceeded to sabatage my career and found ways to make my life uncomfortable. I left a few months later and she was "shocked" that I was leaving. My wife had a similar thing with another woman manager, and then later a man who gaslit her after a year of "loving" her work. I once fired a client due his abusing people that did work for him.
I can see what you wrote being played out in our own neighborhood. We're 'comfortable', but there's another layer of wealth way above our own. The people who live financially and literally above us on the hill, and have additional three-letter acronyms after their names, don't want to seem to associate with us despite sharing the same religion and have kids who go to the same schools. They would probably deny it, but stratification is real. As an aside, ageism is a definite thing in tech as I once witnessed some older women developers ask a younger conference panel of women their views, and all they could say was take care of yourself and workout. Lol.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and keep the detailed stories coming!
Having raised a son and a daughter, I can agree with your assessment. The boys gravitated towards the best athletes, strongest, smartest or funniest. The hierarchy among girls appeared to be more ‘gang’ related. There was no apparent opportunity to dissent otherwise excommunication was the result. I saw boys move between groups.
Unfortunately there’s no DEI to get women into garbage collection, mining or any other form of dangerous work for the “uneducated masses”.
Of course there is room for women in the military, because we aren’t fighting any wars. Had we be in combat as seen in Ukraine with the waste of lives both Ukrainian and Russian then I doubt the draft would apply to women. On the flip side, any country that would send women off to die, will be killing the next generation. It’s a terrible conundrum.
While trying to make sense of a conversation, I stumbled across this post. Your points are stated so well.
They explain the situation perfectly.
My wife insisted last night that I verbally confirm that Trump, due to his character, would be a worse president than KH.
I refused: " I wouldn't vote for either one of them."
Not good enough.
Talking points and references to the "attack on women's rights," 10 year old virus who are pregnant and prevented from having abortions, some vague, purported threat to lesbians and the rest of the alphabet bunch.
I'm basically labeled an evil person now.
The insanity I've seen online has now invaded my [formally] happy home.
I’m sorry to hear this; it’s deeply unfortunate that people are letting their marriages be thus affected by the discourse. Is there any hope for a calm discussion and resolution?
I have been in her shoes. The problem I see, a total stranger with 1% knowledge of the situation, is that she may not have learned how to deal with her strong emotions without taking them out on other people. It took fixing the underlying problem to stop lashing out at my partner, in particular. Another woman friend told me recently that she's been struggling with having to care for an infant alone and not having a job, and she's been taking it out on her spouse. So, it not only takes reminding the person that they're unfairly taking out their emotions on you but also helping them change. Two cents you didn't ask for.
I met many women in Mexico last year, recently divorced/split. COVID destroyed their marriages. They refused the vax. Their husbands didn’t. They fought and it ended the marriage.
I know more than one guy who really didn’t want to be vaxed. The wives said ‘do it or we are done’. They capitulated. And have suffered adverse effects.
Fun article! I also "came of age" directly before, during, and in the wake of the global financial crisis, and watched my friends and parents suffer through it. I saw Barack Obama as a savior who would end our violent wars overseas, stop corruption at the public and private level, and restore justice and fairness at home and abroad in our role as the world's only superpower. Like you, I was both naive and overly ambitious in my expectations. I also expected too much out of one person, one party, and the role of government in general.
Based on the content of your article, I sense that some things in life are still bothering you a bit — nagging suspicions and unanswered or unasked questions. Hopefully you find the answers you're seeking, and hopefully they are satisfying and nourishing to your being.
Much in life can be summed up as the "golden rule" — just trying to be a good, honest, responsible person. We can't control how other people behave or react to us. When you realize this truth, much of our needless anxiety can be allowed to evaporate away, like specks of water on sun-baked concrete.
Much wisdom in your comment. I was certainly naive about Obama. I think what nags me is that I find very little questioning of these concepts in real life. It’s like I’m listening to tropes in most conversations I have with women, be they friends, acquaintances, colleagues…
Hi Radha, loved this article.
Do you plan to write about cast in India and outside of India (India diaspora?)
Thank you
I am! Anything in particular you’re interested in?
Yaay!! Thank you!!
Can i say everything about the cast system?
Origins (yes religion but is religion enough to explain it?)
Do you think british colonialism played a role in it?
Cast and Christianism and Islam (if cast don’t exist anymore (it’s not really true) how to explain even in Islam and Christianism in Indian (religions that condemn cast) people from higher caste are the priest and imams and have others higher roles)
A lot of Indians deny the existence of caste but studies and events show it’s not the case.
Recents events (the Cisco case) and forum on reddit and different articles shows cast is present also in Indian diaspora and i was surprised you didn’t talk about it in your article.
Cast and Bollywood.
They just don’t talk about it and it makes sense they are all from the ”good” caste.
Except some modern tv shows like Ajeeb Daastaans, Made in Heaven the episode with Radhika Apte and the movie Article 15 with Ayushmann Khurrana.
How to take some posts, opinions, about LGBTQ+ rights in Indian and Black Lives Matter (many Bollywood celebrities posted about) while many Indians (the Dalits) are still treated as less than human?
This is not a comment to accuse or stir something.
I’m obsessed about India, Indian culture and watch indian movies, documentaries, listen to indian music, eat indian food, listen to some podcasts ect… and can’t find someone who is ready to talk about cast openly. Not for me or us to judge but to understand.
Thank you
Thank you for writing this, I'm so glad some Note I wrote made it to you. Love disagreeable women and love that you write about class. I see so much of myself in your piece here, from childhood to adulthood to supporting Bernie Sanders. Among my peers to which I ostensibly belong to now, based on income, education, interests etc I am alone. No one else had to be head of household in their 20s to support their family of origin. It was such a rude awakening when I realized that my friends who always criticized power from leftist identity politics were all trust fund kids.
I'm so glad to find another woman who cares about such topics. I, too, felt an acute sense of betrayal. I'm reading a book, We Have Never Been Woke, atm, and it's an examination of the elite through the twentieth century drawing parallels between elite altruistic movements..which end up being in the service of the elites themselves. I came across your work through another WoP alum, I believe it was Ved who randomly linked me to you as I was talking to him about something else entirely. Would love to chat someday in a gym or otherwise :)
I often wonder to what extent our 'learned' social positions remain part of us, my mother was black and my father was white, he died when we were all very young, and we grew up on state benefits, if it were not for those benefits we would have been out on the street.
Despite climbing up to working class, working for myself, and earning a decent amount of money for several years, there is still something in me that gets activated, like a rebellious child that thinks he is being looked down upon from a facial expression or the tone of someone's voice.
I do wonder how much we can change, and how much we must just accept.
I appreciate your sharing this. I feel much the same in that my inner child that rich kids bullied is activated randomly among friends or at work; the experience of scarcity never leaves you, I think. I, too, have been doing fine for about eight years after struggling in my 20s, but my relationship with money remains mediated by my class origin. I think, much like people say, the experience of race informs your entire life; the experience of class has colored my relationships with people who were born into it (which is everyone I know). So, I'm not sure that we will ever feel completely at home among this class of people.
Makes me think of ‘Karna’ being seen and judged as the son of a charioteer, or that boy that chopped his thumb off in the Mahabharata to ensure Arjuna’s name as the greatest archer.
Did not expect an on point MbH reference from a non Indian-are you into mythology? The MbH is honestly an obsession of mine since childhood and I was considering writing something about it just this morning…
I have read the MbH (abriged version) several times, could be bordering on obsession, I find answers to questions - I wondered what is the purpose of a king when King Charles was about to be coronated.
‘The purpose of king is to provide freedom from fear’, was the specific answer in the MbH.
I can remember something about Yudhishthira stating that class can only really be determined by observing behaviour, as the classes are now mixed - I think it was when Bhima was caught be a snake or a Yaksha, and Yudhishthira had to answer questions to free him.
Have you read ‘The difficulty of being Good’ - Gurcharan Das? It’s based on the timeless teachings of the MbH.
I don't know how I found this, but I'm so glad I read it. It brings many aspects of my own experiences to light, as another Asian-American from a lower class background who ended up in the educated liberal professional world but has never felt like I fit in here, for many of the reasons you point out.
Thank you for writing and sharing this deeply personal and very vulnerable post. It's given me a lot to contemplate.
Thanks so much for reading, means a lot, and I appreciate your sharing your experience. It actually helps to know others from minority groups feel the same. I often feel like I'm pretending to be someone I'm not. Would love to read your story.
I am not totally ready to share my story publicly yet, but I appreciate the encouragement very much!
We need a movie with your story henderson/Vance style
That was an extraordinarily insightful piece of writing! Well done and thanks!
I found you via the Unbekoming SS and thankfully so. Brilliant article and expert diagnosing of your situation and the realities of all of it.
My better half and myself have both been sideswiped in our careers by sociopaths, men and women both. Sociopathy seems to be more common in women than men, but I've seen it play out in both genders.
We both work in tech and have experienced the ups/downs of going along to get along. I'm an introvert and am happy to be alone in order to keep my values intact. My spouse is an extrovert and is more willing to go along with things, but not when it crosses her baseline values. After a few bouts with these type of people, I can now see it coming miles away. I avoid them at all costs.
I worked for a woman, who made me her best friend, but after a year, she was determined I was after her job (which I wasn't and never would be - not my type of role), and then proceeded to sabatage my career and found ways to make my life uncomfortable. I left a few months later and she was "shocked" that I was leaving. My wife had a similar thing with another woman manager, and then later a man who gaslit her after a year of "loving" her work. I once fired a client due his abusing people that did work for him.
I can see what you wrote being played out in our own neighborhood. We're 'comfortable', but there's another layer of wealth way above our own. The people who live financially and literally above us on the hill, and have additional three-letter acronyms after their names, don't want to seem to associate with us despite sharing the same religion and have kids who go to the same schools. They would probably deny it, but stratification is real. As an aside, ageism is a definite thing in tech as I once witnessed some older women developers ask a younger conference panel of women their views, and all they could say was take care of yourself and workout. Lol.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and keep the detailed stories coming!
Having raised a son and a daughter, I can agree with your assessment. The boys gravitated towards the best athletes, strongest, smartest or funniest. The hierarchy among girls appeared to be more ‘gang’ related. There was no apparent opportunity to dissent otherwise excommunication was the result. I saw boys move between groups.
Unfortunately there’s no DEI to get women into garbage collection, mining or any other form of dangerous work for the “uneducated masses”.
Of course there is room for women in the military, because we aren’t fighting any wars. Had we be in combat as seen in Ukraine with the waste of lives both Ukrainian and Russian then I doubt the draft would apply to women. On the flip side, any country that would send women off to die, will be killing the next generation. It’s a terrible conundrum.
Thanks for sharing reality.
While trying to make sense of a conversation, I stumbled across this post. Your points are stated so well.
They explain the situation perfectly.
My wife insisted last night that I verbally confirm that Trump, due to his character, would be a worse president than KH.
I refused: " I wouldn't vote for either one of them."
Not good enough.
Talking points and references to the "attack on women's rights," 10 year old virus who are pregnant and prevented from having abortions, some vague, purported threat to lesbians and the rest of the alphabet bunch.
I'm basically labeled an evil person now.
The insanity I've seen online has now invaded my [formally] happy home.
I’m sorry to hear this; it’s deeply unfortunate that people are letting their marriages be thus affected by the discourse. Is there any hope for a calm discussion and resolution?
Good news: she sat down next to me the following afternoon and said, "I'm sorry for being such a ____ last night."
There had been some other, upsetting issues on her mind, unrelated to me.
That said, it's a bit chilling watching someone you know melt down like that.
I have been in her shoes. The problem I see, a total stranger with 1% knowledge of the situation, is that she may not have learned how to deal with her strong emotions without taking them out on other people. It took fixing the underlying problem to stop lashing out at my partner, in particular. Another woman friend told me recently that she's been struggling with having to care for an infant alone and not having a job, and she's been taking it out on her spouse. So, it not only takes reminding the person that they're unfairly taking out their emotions on you but also helping them change. Two cents you didn't ask for.
The ‘sorry I was having a bad day’ can only work in certain circumstances. It really depends on what was said.
I met many women in Mexico last year, recently divorced/split. COVID destroyed their marriages. They refused the vax. Their husbands didn’t. They fought and it ended the marriage.
Sad.
There are detox protocols out there - perhaps that would be helpful to these women or someone in their position?
Also insane
I know more than one guy who really didn’t want to be vaxed. The wives said ‘do it or we are done’. They capitulated. And have suffered adverse effects.
I regret being vaccinated multiple times for sure
Some of them made the point they didn’t want ‘poison juice’ squirted into them three or four times a week.
Fun article! I also "came of age" directly before, during, and in the wake of the global financial crisis, and watched my friends and parents suffer through it. I saw Barack Obama as a savior who would end our violent wars overseas, stop corruption at the public and private level, and restore justice and fairness at home and abroad in our role as the world's only superpower. Like you, I was both naive and overly ambitious in my expectations. I also expected too much out of one person, one party, and the role of government in general.
Based on the content of your article, I sense that some things in life are still bothering you a bit — nagging suspicions and unanswered or unasked questions. Hopefully you find the answers you're seeking, and hopefully they are satisfying and nourishing to your being.
Much in life can be summed up as the "golden rule" — just trying to be a good, honest, responsible person. We can't control how other people behave or react to us. When you realize this truth, much of our needless anxiety can be allowed to evaporate away, like specks of water on sun-baked concrete.
<3
I had been in business for Too long to not know a flim Flam man when I see one. He never fooled me for a second.
Much wisdom in your comment. I was certainly naive about Obama. I think what nags me is that I find very little questioning of these concepts in real life. It’s like I’m listening to tropes in most conversations I have with women, be they friends, acquaintances, colleagues…
The absolute and shocking cruelty of abortion/infanticide is the religion of the Left, especially its females.
They’re malevolent, violent Mean Girls with no mercy or tenderness to the weakest and voiceless little girls (and boys) they deem disposable.
They won't allow you to disagree but of course it will have to be a man who enforces that.
Respect
Boy does this sound familiar. Except I was a little white girl, this story could be mine.
I would be proud to be your friend!
Simply excellent!